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eBay problem re sale of 1996 Dodge RAM 3500
As of February 27th the Buyer has not responded to the Square Trade Mediator's e-mail. It is regretable that nobody really wins here. Mr. Johnson feel apparently that I took advantage of him. In bidding on eBay he stipulated agreement to the terms of Sale. He again stipulated to these same terms in the Document of Sale he signed when he took deleivery. He clearly does not abide by his own word nor his signature. You can review the documentation here and make your own mind up as to who is correct. A copy of the latest responses by way of Square Trade are also reprinted below.
February 27,2005 8:28 PM (PT)
Dear Mr. Howe,
Thank you for your message. I am sorry that I could not be of more help to you in this matter. I will close the case without resolution. You can request that the case be re-opened if you feel that you and Mr. Johnson can come to an agreement at a later time.
I appreciate your time and participation in the mediation process. Thank you for using SquareTrade and good luck in your future dealings.
Sincerely,
Gretchen Hester
SquareTrade Mediator
tersans
Sun, Feb 27, 2005 4:37 PM (PT)
Ms. Hester:
I appreciate all you have done here but I am not interested in what "professional estimates" Mr. Johnson is getting. When he made the winning bid on eBay he agreed to a legal and binding agreement as stated on eBay and which eBay itself points out to every Buyer.
When he came to pick up the vehicle he had all the time he wanted/needed to put into a full and complete examination of the vehicle and I was more than willing to take care of anything he felt strongly about and offered to do so. He decided to accept the vehicle as it was delivered to him of his own volition without coercion or force on my part. At that time he personally signed a document which again stated the terms of the sale and his full and total acceptance of those terms as well as further stating his satisfaction with the vehicle. There was no "agreement" between us that anything he discovered - after the fact - I would take care of. I went to great lengths to be as fair and as open as I could although he certainly does not believe that. At this point I could care less about what he thinks.
I am not about to wait longer for him to have a "professional" anything at this point. He demanded $550 as he put it for me to be "fair" He never once justified any of this $550 and now the almighty only might know what he plans to justify. When I filed the Square Trade dispute he had not left the inflammatory and libelous comments he did on eBay. Any solution that Square Trade might be able to broker will not remove these comments. As you put it only a court can/could do that now. Mr. Johnson by his own words, actions, and inaction has directed his own course. neHe has made his bed, so to say, now let him lie in it.
This case was filed on either the 13th or 14th of February. It is now the 27th of February. 14 days +/- have passed with nothing further of any fact from Mr. Johnson. Had he not initially responded Square Trade would have ended this. I believe that I have waited patiently since he published feedback comments on eBay with nothing further coming from Mr. Johnson. This could go on for days more and I see absolutely no benefit to me any more at this point to try to placate Mr. Johnson any further. You are perfectly free to share this with Mr. Johnson. I really do not care to try to deal with this person any further.
My personal appreciation for your efforts in this, even if those efforts could not reach a timely understanding, which was not your fault.
Sincerely,
Terry Howe
Mediator
Sun, Feb 27, 2005 12:19 PM (PT)
Mr. Howe,
I would like to keep you up-to-date on the status of the mediation. Mr. Johnson indicated last week that he was going to get professional estimates on the needed repairs to the vehicle so that he could give you an exact breakdown of what he was requesting. I have not yet heard back from Mr. Johnson regarding that issue. As soon as I hear from him, I will contact you.
Sincerely,
Gretchen Hester
SquareTrade Mediator
Mediator
Thu, Feb 17, 2005 12:27 PM (PT)
Mr. Howe,
Thank you for the message. We will see what happens as far as a more detailed list of repairs. I will be in touch as soon as Mr. Johnson gets back to me.
Sincerely,
Gretchen Hester
SquareTrade Mediator
tersans
Thu, Feb 17, 2005 11:07 AM (PT)
Ms. Hester:
Thank you and LOL. I have asked the same thing but all I got was negative feedback. Maybe you will have better luck so I wish you good luck. From what I have from him he beleives this is what I would have gotten for the truck had he not made the winning bid. This is not suported by the bid record on eBay. The second place bidder was recorded several times the last being at $14,000 and his winning bid was recorded only once.
Mediator
Thu, Feb 17, 2005 9:10 AM (PT)
Mr. Howe,
I have asked the buyer in this case to give me a breakdown of the requested $550, and to tell why he is requesting that specific amount. As soon as I hear back from him, I will let you know.
Sincerely,
Gretchen Hester
SquareTrade Mediator
tersans
Mon, Feb 14, 2005 7:36 PM (PT)
Ms. Hester:
Thank you. This has really gone beyond frustration for me.
As I said I understand eBay position on feedback but with review by an organization such as Square Trade they could go far in eliminating one of the most contentious issues, at least for me, about eBay. They go so far as letting you suggest withdrawal but not deletion a mistake in my mind.
I most certainly would not suggest eBay simply remove or withdraw feedback because someone said so and I can not imagine them wanting a review process in house for that. Then again that is what Square Trade could/should be able to do for them. I have a very hard time understanding their reasoning behind withdrawal and deletion. If they trust you folks to do a judgement for them for a recommendation for withdrawal then a fairly simple procedure should exist for deletion in proven cases as well, through your company or some other.
Oh well I digress from the problem at hand. We will see what we will see from the Buyer.
Sincerely,
Terry Howe
The following is an exact copy of e-mail exchange between the parties. You can make your own determination.
This Buyer physically inspected, then accepted delivery, took physical and legal posession of vehicle, signed a Document of Sale (copy here) then started complaining about all the stuff he says now, but not on delivery, is wrong two days later. As stated to Square Trade "Anything, repeat anything, would have been possible to correct any item Buyer was seriously concerned about.prior to his complete and physical possession." That is the reason for a signed written agreement. Regrettably we live in a world that requires such.
Regardless of what the Buyer is now saying - after the fact - some of which is simply not true - he accepted the vehicle, stated in writing everything was to his satisfaction and the description as made in eBay was correct, and that he was in complete agreement with the Terms of Sale, drove the vehicle out of the state and after two days later has called me a liar, a cheat, and made a demand to "place $550 in his PayPal account. then Appropriate feedback would be left in the morning."
Buyer was invited to spend the night at our home. He declined and in fact seemed to be in quite a hurry to get going on the road. Buyer inspected at airport before lunch, we drove into town from airport had lunch, during which time Buyer never expressed concern or reservation about vehicle, inspected again after lunch, where a problem with the PacBrake was discovered, after that was resolved to a mis-adjusted micro switch, which Buyer acknowledged was a small problem easily rectified as he was going to place a manual switch on gear shift anyway (it now again after the fact seems to be a big problem), took possession of vehicle and title, signed Document of Sale document and left.
I may be totally wrong but you can judge for yourself in reading the e-mail exchange after the fact as to who is/was correct. I had planned on making an adjustment for the drivers side rear air bag problem which was clearly my fault in not catching but after his e-mails and attempt at feedback extortion I simply withdrew. I will be guided by Square Trade and the Terms of Sale to make good, as I can, on this problem. In 232 feedbacks this is my only negative and is truly regretted.
From: Dan Johnson Date: 02/11/05 09:38:18 To: terry Subject: Re: 96 Dodge
Whats done is done. You made no effort to make it right. What I said is true and saying that if you would have know about things that were broken you would have fixed them does not get them fixed. Your 40 email bidder only bid to $11,500 whats that tell you about your fantasy about him wanting it so bad and, end auction early. He must of got some truth out of you. Money means so much to some people that they will change proper human behavior to tell thier friends how well they made out. I am done with you and your long winded emails. You have clearly stated that it did have problems not listed in auction and say that it my word against yours. Go on top of a mountain and sit for awile or church or whatever will work for you! Any more emails and I will consider it cruel and unusual punishment.
terry <terry@tersans.com> wrote:
What you say are facts are irrelevant only because you nor I can prove them one way or the other. You say one thing I say another which is exactly why I made a written Bill of Sale that you signed at the end. If you were as disappointed as you now say you were why on earth would you sign a document at the end of your inspection that states just the opposite.
You continue to point out the micro switch like it is a very big thing when you and I both discussed it and you brushed it off as you were going to replace it anyway. I won't get into the various items again as it serves no purpose. One owner does not mean one operator and I will state again here " If I had known something was wrong I would have fixed it plain and simple" and I made every attempt to repair or replace anything I knew to be wrong. The air bag was my mistake and I acknowledged that. Why would I replace a windshield and then deliver a vehicle that was smoking under the dash. It makes no sense.
You may not have intended to make a threat but regrettably that is how it looks, how I took it, how I reacted, and how I proceeded in further action. Only bids made and excepted by eBay are displayed. The record shows you made one bid, it this case the winning bid. The second bid was made by the same bidder who had placed several before on this truck and he had already told me by email he was bidding at $14,000, He made one at $12,755, then another at $13,500 and his final at $14,000. You only recorded bid was at $14,087. eBay does not display automatic bids only actual. Had you made an actual bid prior to the ending it would show but the only bid showing for you is the final bid. You made the choice to bid based on the questions you asked and what was stated in the eBay item description. As pointed out in the auction and on the bill of sale you signed it was your decision not anyone else's. I have made a few purchases I have not been happy with but accepted such because I did not ask the right questions or read the item description carefully enough, My fault not the seller's per say. As I told you After over 234 positive feedback of 100% and after I told you I got my '05 Dodge RAM through eBay that pushed me well over your stated $65,000 on eBay and I think I know how it mostly works.
One bidder on this truck sent me over 40 e-mails and I answered each one. Those that I though relevant I posted on the item page. He was trying to cut a deal outside of eBay. I have all those and others including yours along with my responses. I believe the recorded record shows that I was totally open with any and all bidders and those who e-mailed questions who did not bid anyway.
I believe that any questions you asked were responded to prior to your getting here and then some. I also offered to meet you half way or better. You had more than enough opportunity to ask anything you wanted to during the auction, after the auction before you came, and while you were here. I would and did try my best to answer honestly and fully any question put to me. I am truly sorry you do not seem to agree.
You stated in you initial e-mail that "a feeling of being cheated and lied directly ......" and you do think that would make me angry basically being called both a liar and a cheat. You do not think that "To be fare you should place $550 in my PayPal account under this email address. Appropriate feed back will be left in the morning." is not a threat. In my book it is feedback extortion plain and simple - pay me $$ and appropriate feedback will be left. Sorry you lost most creditability with me both in my perception of a threat made and in your direct accusation of my being both a liar and a cheat. It does not make sense to me to say these things and then say you did not intend to make me upset and "I have no hard feelings."
To be quite honest I simply do not understand. There is no need to respond further because I do not think at this point you or I can say anything further to each other than to continue to rehash the points of both sides here. While I am very sorry for apparently the way you feel I do not feel, with the exception of the air bag, that I could or would have done anything differently.
From: Dan Johnson Date: 02/10/05 17:35:41 To: terry Subject: Re: 96 Dodge
Facts: I did say that I was dissapointed about some items right after lunch as we sat in the truck. I did mention the battery acid at the airport you said it was scratches. In 5 minutes I pointed out things that you did not report on and you are selling as a one owner you should have noticed these things. The micro switch does not work everytime and is faulty, when jumping accross the two wires it works everytime. My nieghbor is a Dodge tech and helped me determine that. You must not have looked for the things that were wrong but in the future that is what the buyer needs to know about. Do you expect someone to spend $750 on travel and return home empty handed? I did not place a threat on you and the email I sent was not intended to make you upset. I have no hard feelings. You must understand that I expect nothing more than any other purchaser would. If the other bidder would have placed a second bid of $20,000 all he was doing was increasing his present bid. It still would have sold for $13,500 unless someone bid $13,750 he would then pay $100 over what another was willing to pay. His price would then be $13,850 because it goes in $100 increments. If I did not bid he would have had no competion over over $13,500 regardless of how high he increased his bid. All this is not that important I just thought it would help you understand what your and mine situation dollar wise would have been if I did not bid.I would just like you to be fare as you know about these issues that I did mention them. My Ebay score of 49 represents over $65,000 in transactions. I did ask Q's and did point out these issues. They needed to be addressed before the buyer committs to a 2 day journey and $750 (two one way tickets at $325 and a hotel) before you list another item you should look for the flaws and detail them so the bidder hsa the whole story. Trust plays a big role on Ebay it is not like going to the dealer down the street because your not out any $ when you go down the street to look at a vehicle. Many small details add up. I will send your plates next week. Please do the right thing....... Thanks Dan
terry <tersans@blackfoot.net> wrote:
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Lets see how I answer this. First and foremost I'll say you do not know me and I do not know you. What one man's idea of a great truck, that is just fine, for him, may not be anywhere near another's idea. While I do know that what I have said about my truck is as true as I know it to be and I am very comfortable with my description, then and now. When you see them in person they may not live up to your mind's view of them. I do not want either of us to be disappointed or angry, but have no idea how to do that now.
Now to your points.
In fact you never said you were disappointed or that you had any displeasure. You signed a document, without coercion or force, stating that you "acknowledges the vehicle is as described fully in eBay item 4523037921 on actual delivery and states her/his full agreement and complete acceptance of the description of vehicle as delivered................"
I cannot say this was a big priority to me. It was not. One of four I have/had and it had become not that useful to me any more. The Terms of Sale published on eBay on this item clearly state that " It is the responsibility of the buyer to have thoroughly inspected the vehicle, and to have satisfied herself or himself as to the condition and value and to bid based upon that judgment solely. The seller shall and will make every reasonable and honest effort to disclose any known defects associated with this vehicle at the buyers request prior to the close of sale. Seller assumes no responsibility for any repairs after sale regardless. A fact stated in the auction and another fact in the Bill of Sale that you signed, after you inspected the truck.
There was/is no excuse from me for the air bag. That was an error on my part and I acknowledged that directly to you prior to your signing the bill of sale.
Battery acid on top of the fender? You never mentioned that in or during your inspection and I sure do not know anything about that. There was normal wear and tear including small rock chips on the front fender. Picture of that was sent to you.
A rotten fuel transfer hose. I assume here you are talking about the delivery hose on the in-bed tank. Rubber of these hoses generally crack in the outer covering after about the first six months. There is nothing rotten about it unless it is leaking which it was not.
The wheel cover you knew about in an email sent to you prior to the auction close along with additional pictures of the truck.
The truck was NEVER driven on "dusty roads with the air box disconnected." It was apparently disconnected when the filter was cleaned and re-oiled. The truck was not driven much in the last two or more months, which was one of the reasons for sale. It was never driven extensively in this condition.
There were no gauges removed what so ever. It did bother me that we found an apparent diesel leak that was ongoing. I checked and informed you immediately that a pressure sender (actually I think I called it a shut off valve) was removed from the remote filter block and a plug was inserted there that possibly was the source of the diesel leak. When the sensor was removed diesel did leak and was possibly the reason for the diesel you saw on the truck frame. Again you saw this prior to signing the bill of sale.
I showed you the problematic micro switch myself to principally show you the PACBrake actuator was in fact working properly. You stated it made no difference because you were going to put a different switch on the truck to manually actuate it.
What can I say to your "but in reality it wonders all over." Maybe I don't know what a truck does that wanders all over is. It never wandered for me, or it would have been corrected, and my wife never made an indication that this was ever a problem to her. It was balanced and aligned when the new front tires and shocks were put on not all that long ago.
I have NO idea what the smoke issue is about. It never did that on us or I would have had it fixed. I would never do that to anyone. What would be the point. If I had known something was wrong I would have fixed it plain and simple. You cannot honestly believe that I would drive a truck to deliver to anyone that was smoking under the dash. I drove it to get the windshield replaced for you. I drove it home and then back to the airport to pick you up, we drove it around for lunch etc. and there was no burning or odor of burning at any time. Give me a break!
As to the tires. I stated in the auction "Tires are serviceable with a few thousand miles left on them." The front tires were almost new and the rear were serviceable as far as I was concerned. At no time did I ever respond to you "your reply frt more than 1/2 and rear less than 1/2" simply because you never asked me that at any time.
You say you are "left with a feeling of being cheated and lied directly as a result of how you fooled through on selling and the care that you placed in the final maintanace." The only way I can answer such a statement is in the following manner. You never once, while you and I were together, during first inspection at the airport, at or during lunch, and then again when you inspected for a second time, prior to your departure, some 2 1/2 hours all told, say anything what-so-ever that you were displeased, that you had serious problems with the truck, or that the truck was a disappointment to you. You then signed a bill of sale, after all, that that states just the opposite, just prior to your departure. In fact you seemed only interested on getting on the road as fast as you could.
As I stated in the auction that if my reserve was not met then I would give the truck to my daughter and I would never do that if it was in the condition that you now feel - after the fact - the truck is in. I did replace the windshield and make every attempt to repair or replace anything I knew to be wrong. The air bag was my fault, I admitted it, and did not catch it.
I find it a little disconcerting that you waited till after the fact to say and point out the problems you now have with the truck. Your statement about "If I would have not bid you would have sold it for $13,500..." is in fact not true. If you review the bids you will find that the second bid, which you bid over in the last seconds, was for $14,000. The truck is over 9 years old and while it clearly has some wear and tear I do not feel in any way you were lied to, misled, or otherwise cheated. I tried to answer all questions put to me by anyone and sent additional pictures on the vehicle to anyone who requested. You also got a set although you did not request such. Most of your concerns you raise now - after the fact - were in fact talked about when you were here. Never once during that time did you express the "facts" as you now go to length to point out. In fact when you pointed out some things found during your inspections, like the air bag, indicated or gave me the impression that you felt that was to be expected in a 9 years old truck used primarily for towing but other things around a ranch and was not a real problem.
You go on to state in your email "To be fare you should place $550 in my PayPal account under this email address. Appropriate feed back will be left in the morning." First I do not respond well to threats. I had actually, to the point of your e-mail, considered refunding an appropriate amount because the air bag which was clearly an error on my part. Your statement here can/could be considered feedback extortion as defined by eBay.
You clearly seem unhappy now but were not so, or at least never said or displayed you were by action or words, when I was with you. I do believe I was fair in this while you clearly do not. I'll repeat for sake of argument - What one man's idea of a great truck, that is just fine, for him, may not be anywhere near another's idea. While I do know that what I have said about my truck is as true as I know it to be. When you see them in person they may not live up to your mind's view of them. I do not want either of us to be disappointed or angry, but have no idea how to do that now, and doubt from your email that it can be done.
Your offer for me "To be fare you should place $550 in my PayPal account under this email address" , I must admit, is bewildering in that it picks a figure seemingly out of the air, gives the impression that you would be mollified, at least, if I were to do this, and that on doing this I would be fair to you, in doing this you would leave "Appropriate feedback........" As I said before I do not respond to threats which this clearly is and cheapens any argument you might correctly make. I will think on this more to see what if anything I might or might not do.
From: Dan Johnson Date: 02/10/05 09:55:42 To: terry Subject: Re: 96 Dodge
When someone bids on an eBay auction a trust occurs between the two parties. The buyer is trusting that the info is accurate and complete and judges how much to bid. In this case you spent far more time on the good points and vauque on others. I was dissapointed just 5 minutes after viewing the truck, you see I have owned many vehicles and worked on them and have a large knowlege base about them. The painted picture: What was I suposed to do stay the nite and spend another $325 to get back? and two days of travel. When I saw all that was presented to me it showed that this truck and sale was not a big priority to you. In just a few minutes I noticed air bag hanging and battery acid splahed on top of the fender, a rotten fuel transfer hose and the wheel cover....... Driven on dusty roads with the air box dissconnected. This is the first impression and paints a picture of having gauges removed, leaking fuel and no concern about the purchaser whatsoever. I tested the micro switch and it is faulty, it only activates sometimes and needs replaceing. When asked how it drives you replied that it runs solid down the road but in reality it wonders all over. There is a shorted electrical prob under dash or heater motor failing causing a lite smoke that forced me to drive back 800+ miles with windows partialy down, yes the smoke finished me off. You said the rear tires were serviceable? I said what is left on the tires, your reply frt more than 1/2 and rear less than 1/2. Well I quess that almost nothing is less than half.
I wanted to buy a truck that I could depend on and keep for a long time but I am left with a feeling of being cheated and lied directly as a result of how you fooled thur on selling and the care that you placed in the final maintanace. If I would have not bid you would have sold it for $13,500.... if I would have returned without it I would have been out $700+ and two days of travel.
To be fare you should place $550 in my PayPal account under this email address. Appropriate feed back will be left in the morning. Dan
terry <tersans@blackfoot.net> wrote:
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Hey Dan:
Hope you trip back was uneventful and the truck still sits well with you. Just thought I would pass the following on .
After getting home I asked my guys about the fuel leak we were seeing. They told me that they had removed a shut off pressure valve from the front port of the fuel filter (which was put there when the on block transfer fuel pump was replaced so fuel pressures could be easily checked) . Diesel did apparently leak when valve was removed. There is an idea here that the plug that was replaced in the filer head may be what is leaking.
I do sincerely regret the air bag problem. No excuse just forgot to finish the job. Hopefully these are minor problems, which should have been fixed prior to your getting here, and nothing further comes up in the short run. It was a good truck for us, we tried to take care of it, and hopefully has many more years left in it for you.
Good Luck in everything and Thanks! again.
Terry H
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